1 00:00:11,570 --> 00:00:09,049 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:11,580 with Pastor Howard storm about his 3 00:00:17,570 --> 00:00:13,950 conversion to Christianity by way of 4 00:00:21,410 --> 00:00:17,580 near-death experience your experience is 5 00:00:24,470 --> 00:00:21,420 just so specifically Christian in a way 6 00:00:27,140 --> 00:00:24,480 that I gotta tell you I cannot tell you 7 00:00:29,450 --> 00:00:27,150 one near-death experience researcher 8 00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:29,460 that I've encountered that would be on 9 00:00:34,610 --> 00:00:33,120 board with your interpretation of this 10 00:00:38,540 --> 00:00:34,620 experience in terms of it being 11 00:00:42,110 --> 00:00:38,550 singularly a Christian kind of thing how 12 00:00:45,020 --> 00:00:42,120 do you square with that I certainly 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:45,030 believe that all near-death experiences 14 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:47,730 are idiosyncratic I I believe that these 15 00:00:52,250 --> 00:00:50,190 experiences their gifts and everybody is 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:52,260 given a different gift just as some 17 00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:54,210 everybody is different in this world 18 00:00:57,490 --> 00:00:55,920 they're all going to have somewhat 19 00:01:10,470 --> 00:00:57,500 different experiences 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:12,730 welcome to skeptical where we explore 21 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:14,210 controversial science but leading 22 00:01:18,910 --> 00:01:16,820 researchers thinkers and their critics 23 00:01:20,950 --> 00:01:18,920 I'm your host Alex Icarus and on this 24 00:01:23,770 --> 00:01:20,960 episode of skeptic Co we're going to 25 00:01:26,350 --> 00:01:23,780 look at the link between Christianity in 26 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:26,360 near-death experience this is a show and 27 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:28,310 interview that I was really looking 28 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:31,490 forward to because the Christian 29 00:01:36,610 --> 00:01:34,729 near-death experience thing has kind of 30 00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:36,620 been in the media quite a bit lately a 31 00:01:41,260 --> 00:01:39,680 major movie came out pastor Howard storm 32 00:01:43,510 --> 00:01:41,270 or you're gonna hear from today has been 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:43,520 out for quite some time there's actually 34 00:01:48,219 --> 00:01:45,770 another gentleman out there in McCormick 35 00:01:50,469 --> 00:01:48,229 who I'm going to interview today I mean 36 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:50,479 with this time-shifted interview 37 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:52,100 scheduled you won't hear it for a few 38 00:01:58,150 --> 00:01:54,890 weeks but this is a topic I really 39 00:02:00,420 --> 00:01:58,160 wanted to dive into because as you 40 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:00,430 probably know there's this divide 41 00:02:06,730 --> 00:02:03,290 between near-death experience 42 00:02:09,999 --> 00:02:06,740 researchers who say yes this phenomena 43 00:02:12,070 --> 00:02:10,009 is real it seems to be connected with 44 00:02:15,190 --> 00:02:12,080 this spiritual transformation that 45 00:02:16,930 --> 00:02:15,200 people go through but no researchers say 46 00:02:20,830 --> 00:02:16,940 there doesn't seem to be any link 47 00:02:23,259 --> 00:02:20,840 between this and any specific religious 48 00:02:25,810 --> 00:02:23,269 experience as a matter of fact every 49 00:02:28,300 --> 00:02:25,820 near-death experience researcher I can 50 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:28,310 think of says just the opposite that 51 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:31,280 even people who go into a near-death 52 00:02:35,229 --> 00:02:33,530 experience with some kind of religious 53 00:02:37,750 --> 00:02:35,239 background Christian background Hindu 54 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:37,760 background are often surprised at 55 00:02:44,650 --> 00:02:40,489 getting back the message that it's not 56 00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:44,660 about their particular religion but then 57 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:47,540 you have folks like Howard storm who are 58 00:02:52,509 --> 00:02:49,310 gonna hear from today who have a very 59 00:02:54,699 --> 00:02:52,519 distinctly Christian kind of experience 60 00:02:57,130 --> 00:02:54,709 so I really wanted to sort all that out 61 00:02:59,580 --> 00:02:57,140 and that's what I tried to do or at 62 00:03:02,289 --> 00:02:59,590 least start to do with this interview 63 00:03:04,199 --> 00:03:02,299 the story of Howard storm is well-known 64 00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:04,209 to many familiar with the near-death 65 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:07,190 experience phenomena pastor storm was a 66 00:03:12,910 --> 00:03:10,130 committed atheist until a severe illness 67 00:03:15,699 --> 00:03:12,920 left him in a hospital bed in Paris 68 00:03:18,310 --> 00:03:15,709 France on the brink of death what 69 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:18,320 happened next was a dramatic near-death 70 00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:20,630 experience that brought him to the 71 00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:22,700 depths of I guess what most 72 00:03:29,410 --> 00:03:25,580 us would call hell and finally to a 73 00:03:32,530 --> 00:03:29,420 dramatic encounter with a spirit being 74 00:03:35,559 --> 00:03:32,540 he understood to be Jesus all of this is 75 00:03:38,619 --> 00:03:35,569 chronicled in his book my descent into 76 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:38,629 death Howard welcome to skeptic oh 77 00:03:41,860 --> 00:03:40,370 thanks so much for joining me 78 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:41,870 well thank you Alex for having me on 79 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:46,090 your program my pleasure your story is 80 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:49,280 amazing I've given folks just a brief 81 00:03:54,130 --> 00:03:51,890 thumbnail sketch there do you want to 82 00:03:56,289 --> 00:03:54,140 quickly fill in some of the details the 83 00:03:58,690 --> 00:03:56,299 most important details that people need 84 00:04:00,130 --> 00:03:58,700 to know about this incredible experience 85 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:00,140 of yours as we were chatting about just 86 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:02,920 before there were 38 years old you're a 87 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:06,049 teacher at a university and an atheist 88 00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:09,370 and then this thing happens yes I 89 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:12,940 sincerely believe that I was as 90 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:17,380 unproduced to have an experience of 91 00:04:25,210 --> 00:04:22,340 ultimately of Jesus God total conversion 92 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:25,220 of my whole way of thinking as anyone 93 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:27,650 could be I was very committed to 94 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:29,660 Nathan's point of view and I do not mean 95 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:32,810 agnostic people sloppily confused those 96 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:36,650 two terms and I was quite committed to 97 00:04:43,540 --> 00:04:39,680 the notion that there was no God I 98 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:43,550 didn't have any doubt in my mind that 99 00:04:47,409 --> 00:04:45,770 that was true and because I was a 100 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:47,419 university professor and hung out with 101 00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:50,620 other professors were the same worldview 102 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:53,660 we all shared in support of one of their 103 00:04:59,409 --> 00:04:55,880 in those views and there wasn't anything 104 00:05:02,980 --> 00:04:59,419 in our world or in our culture that was 105 00:05:05,409 --> 00:05:02,990 contradictory in our society in American 106 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:05,419 culture at this time you can be quite 107 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:07,370 comfortable being an atheist and I think 108 00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:11,150 that the popular culture supports that 109 00:05:20,529 --> 00:05:14,630 point of view so when this happened to 110 00:05:24,010 --> 00:05:20,539 me it was all new and shocking and 111 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:24,020 amazing and it was transformative to I 112 00:05:27,969 --> 00:05:25,490 mean I think that's one of the things 113 00:05:30,820 --> 00:05:27,979 that you can look at from the near-death 114 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:30,830 experience that is truly difficult for 115 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:33,530 anyone to explain and that's your life I 116 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:36,050 mean your life is is was completely 117 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:36,650 transformed 118 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:39,530 and has been here tell us about what you 119 00:05:44,530 --> 00:05:41,900 do now and how it changed after this 120 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:44,540 experience well after the experience I 121 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:47,270 knew that I had to remake everything and 122 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:50,840 that's a very difficult process because 123 00:05:58,330 --> 00:05:55,850 I had spent 38 years developing my life 124 00:06:00,189 --> 00:05:58,340 my persona and my everything and I 125 00:06:03,790 --> 00:06:00,199 worked hard I worked my way through 126 00:06:06,219 --> 00:06:03,800 school to undergraduate graduate school 127 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:06,229 to get terminal degree in art so that I 128 00:06:11,140 --> 00:06:08,449 could become an art restorer and had 129 00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:11,150 worked my way through academia to being 130 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:13,039 a tenured professor and a department 131 00:06:21,730 --> 00:06:19,610 head and to undo all that but because 132 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:21,740 when I say I have to undo all that I had 133 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:24,860 to undo all the assumptions that 134 00:06:29,589 --> 00:06:27,770 underlie doll that I'm about what life 135 00:06:32,350 --> 00:06:29,599 was about what what I was doing this 136 00:06:36,550 --> 00:06:32,360 world how I was treating myself other 137 00:06:39,850 --> 00:06:36,560 people and most especially um the great 138 00:06:42,159 --> 00:06:39,860 wonderful mystery that referred to as 139 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:42,169 the Creator God the maker of the Supreme 140 00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:47,150 Being the other the holy the one and as 141 00:06:52,629 --> 00:06:50,720 a consequence I became very involved 142 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:52,639 with the church and felt that I was 143 00:06:59,409 --> 00:06:55,430 called into the Ministry of the church 144 00:07:01,360 --> 00:06:59,419 so after my experience I went back to 145 00:07:03,550 --> 00:07:01,370 the University and after a few years I 146 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:03,560 left the university and went to seminary 147 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:05,780 said I could be trained and qualified 148 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:08,449 for ministry which I went to a Methodist 149 00:07:12,629 --> 00:07:10,510 Seminary for three and a half years and 150 00:07:15,550 --> 00:07:12,639 graduated and was ordained and served 151 00:07:19,990 --> 00:07:15,560 churches as a full-time pastor for 22 152 00:07:21,610 --> 00:07:20,000 years amazing so let me take a different 153 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:21,620 angle on this hard the near-death 154 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:23,930 experience is something we've looked at 155 00:07:29,740 --> 00:07:26,960 a lot on this show we usually try and 156 00:07:32,350 --> 00:07:29,750 stick pretty close to the science of it 157 00:07:34,649 --> 00:07:32,360 because at this point as I'm sure you're 158 00:07:37,060 --> 00:07:34,659 aware there's a large body of 159 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:37,070 peer-reviewed scientific literature on 160 00:07:41,020 --> 00:07:39,050 this you know we've had a lot of those 161 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:41,030 people on this show dr. Jeff long 162 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:43,070 somebody I know you're familiar with I'm 163 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:44,990 really impressed with his work PIM van 164 00:07:49,649 --> 00:07:47,409 Lommel another really impressive guy 165 00:07:52,019 --> 00:07:49,659 from the medical community 20 years 166 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:52,029 collar cardiologist 167 00:07:56,729 --> 00:07:53,830 a bunch of other folks Suzanne Gordon 168 00:07:59,309 --> 00:07:56,739 Jan hold there's a list goes on and on 169 00:08:02,909 --> 00:07:59,319 of people who are serious academics 170 00:08:04,409 --> 00:08:02,919 who've published scientific literature 171 00:08:06,389 --> 00:08:04,419 peer-reviewed stuff on near-death 172 00:08:10,589 --> 00:08:06,399 experience what do you make I've never 173 00:08:14,249 --> 00:08:10,599 really seen much of your view or opinion 174 00:08:15,779 --> 00:08:14,259 on this body of scientific work dealing 175 00:08:20,189 --> 00:08:15,789 with near-death experience what do you 176 00:08:22,679 --> 00:08:20,199 make of that I'm aware of some of it and 177 00:08:24,899 --> 00:08:22,689 I appreciate the fact that people are 178 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:24,909 trying to study this objectively but 179 00:08:32,369 --> 00:08:28,089 there's a huge limitation because the 180 00:08:34,409 --> 00:08:32,379 actual experience can't be observed by 181 00:08:37,079 --> 00:08:34,419 any other person so the only thing that 182 00:08:41,069 --> 00:08:37,089 is observable the only thing that's 183 00:08:42,689 --> 00:08:41,079 measurable is the after-effects and the 184 00:08:44,519 --> 00:08:42,699 interesting thing about the near-death 185 00:08:46,410 --> 00:08:44,529 experience that you've already mentioned 186 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:46,420 is is that near-death experiences are 187 00:08:53,490 --> 00:08:51,370 transformative as opposed to drug trips 188 00:08:55,170 --> 00:08:53,500 or you know people you know there's 189 00:08:56,970 --> 00:08:55,180 there's a bunch of quacks out there 190 00:08:59,009 --> 00:08:56,980 quack scientists or say oh we can 191 00:09:01,829 --> 00:08:59,019 reproduce near-death experiences with 192 00:09:04,259 --> 00:09:01,839 drugs and stuff like them and it's not 193 00:09:07,199 --> 00:09:04,269 true and one of the measures of that is 194 00:09:10,019 --> 00:09:07,209 there isn't any real measurable 195 00:09:12,090 --> 00:09:10,029 difference in terms of transforming the 196 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:12,100 people people that I know that have had 197 00:09:16,889 --> 00:09:14,430 near-death experiences lives are 198 00:09:20,309 --> 00:09:16,899 radically changed and when I say radical 199 00:09:22,259 --> 00:09:20,319 on the Latin root means to go to the 200 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:22,269 very root I mean the very core of their 201 00:09:28,170 --> 00:09:24,790 being has changed and that it that is 202 00:09:29,639 --> 00:09:28,180 measurable not only in what they do with 203 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:29,649 their lives after the experience but 204 00:09:34,019 --> 00:09:31,680 also attitudes like for example 205 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:34,029 measuring anxiety about death people 206 00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:36,550 have near-death experiences tend to 207 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:39,430 register no fear or anxiety about death 208 00:09:44,189 --> 00:09:41,740 whatsoever as opposed to the general 209 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:44,199 population where it's death of course 210 00:09:50,369 --> 00:09:45,610 it's the number one fear and anxiety 211 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:50,379 about life so it's hard it's hard stuff 212 00:09:57,569 --> 00:09:52,809 to scientifically measure but there's 213 00:09:59,280 --> 00:09:57,579 this huge body of evidence and by what 214 00:10:01,140 --> 00:09:59,290 I'm referring to as millions of lives 215 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:01,150 not hundreds not 216 00:10:04,590 --> 00:10:02,950 since millions of lives in the United 217 00:10:07,230 --> 00:10:04,600 States alone and all over the world of 218 00:10:09,170 --> 00:10:07,240 people's whose lives are changed by 219 00:10:12,170 --> 00:10:09,180 these experiences so there has to be 220 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:12,180 something going on and it's not 221 00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:16,150 reproducible in in any way by the 222 00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:17,920 scientific community they can they can 223 00:10:23,460 --> 00:10:21,100 try electric shock and taking people you 224 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:23,470 know with anesthetics or other chemicals 225 00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:26,410 to the edge of death they can administer 226 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:27,790 a hallucinogen since things like that 227 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:29,590 and none of that produces the same 228 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:32,560 result yeah but I think don't we have to 229 00:10:36,030 --> 00:10:34,510 be kind of careful when we start saying 230 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:36,040 that or when we start saying that we 231 00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:38,290 can't approach it this way or that way I 232 00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:40,600 think there's some very interesting work 233 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:43,830 that that has been done about both 234 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:46,090 understanding both the medical 235 00:10:52,410 --> 00:10:49,210 conditions preconditions that are 236 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:52,420 associated with the reported experience 237 00:10:58,140 --> 00:10:54,850 so let's break that down so as you say 238 00:11:01,770 --> 00:10:58,150 we cannot re-experience what you 239 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:01,780 experienced but of course science does 240 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:04,090 this all the time we can there's a 241 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:06,340 variety of different ways that we can 242 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:10,090 collect and look at those experiences 243 00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:12,670 and try and find patterns in them try 244 00:11:20,490 --> 00:11:17,220 and find predictable preconditions that 245 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:20,500 that would suggest what those 246 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:23,110 experiences are really about we can look 247 00:11:28,170 --> 00:11:26,050 at them cross-culturally we can see if 248 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:28,180 the experiences in the United States are 249 00:11:32,910 --> 00:11:30,130 any different than the experiences in 250 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:32,920 India or Japan and you know one of the 251 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:34,540 guests I had on this year that I thought 252 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:36,220 was really interesting because she took 253 00:11:42,780 --> 00:11:40,210 an ethnographic perspective on my or 254 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:42,790 death experiences was dr. Suzanne Gordon 255 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:44,890 and you know this whole idea of 256 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:49,510 ethnography is is well established in 257 00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:51,130 the sciences that we can look at 258 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:52,780 different cultures we can look at 259 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:54,190 different people who have different 260 00:11:58,050 --> 00:11:56,590 experiences and we have this body of 261 00:12:02,940 --> 00:11:58,060 tools that we can use to break that down 262 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:02,950 so I'm not so sure that I would say we 263 00:12:07,620 --> 00:12:05,290 can't penetrate this and I guess where 264 00:12:10,340 --> 00:12:07,630 I'm really going with this is that when 265 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:10,350 we start doing that you know Jeff long 266 00:12:14,910 --> 00:12:13,510 has looked at thousands of these cases 267 00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:14,920 dr. Jeff along with 268 00:12:20,610 --> 00:12:18,700 the very rigorous 150 question at least 269 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:20,620 last time I checked there's 150 270 00:12:24,509 --> 00:12:23,110 questions survey we asks all these 271 00:12:26,940 --> 00:12:24,519 questions about people's near-death 272 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:26,950 experience in comparison contrast those 273 00:12:32,699 --> 00:12:30,370 how do you think your experience would 274 00:12:35,699 --> 00:12:32,709 fit in with the broader body of this and 275 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:35,709 more importantly do you care how it fits 276 00:12:39,889 --> 00:12:37,750 in or what any of these researchers 277 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:39,899 might have to say about your experience 278 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:44,290 well first of all since I am a human 279 00:12:50,009 --> 00:12:46,570 being and tried to have some insight 280 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:50,019 into my nature I want to be validated 281 00:12:55,050 --> 00:12:52,180 just like anybody else you know and it's 282 00:12:57,060 --> 00:12:55,060 pretty painful when people tell me I'm 283 00:13:00,030 --> 00:12:57,070 crazy or I Colusa Nate it or I'm 284 00:13:02,579 --> 00:13:00,040 fabricating all this or I'm you know 285 00:13:05,449 --> 00:13:02,589 doing this for profit or whatever they 286 00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:05,459 know that that's hurtful the research 287 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:08,649 some of it is really validating and some 288 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:10,570 of it of course is demeaning like for 289 00:13:15,090 --> 00:13:12,370 example when I read research where if 290 00:13:17,759 --> 00:13:15,100 someone says near-death experiences are 291 00:13:20,430 --> 00:13:17,769 the same things as epileptic fits 292 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:20,440 because people that have epileptic fits 293 00:13:24,449 --> 00:13:23,140 see bright brilliant white lightening 294 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:24,459 heads so that must be a near-death 295 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:26,050 experience and you know they don't know 296 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:27,490 what they're talking about because the 297 00:13:31,319 --> 00:13:29,410 the part that's so important about the 298 00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:31,329 new death experience that everyone that 299 00:13:35,970 --> 00:13:33,790 I've ever met that's had a positive 300 00:13:38,009 --> 00:13:35,980 near-death experience and we and we do 301 00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:38,019 know that this a portion a substantial 302 00:13:42,569 --> 00:13:39,720 portion of people have negative ones 303 00:13:45,389 --> 00:13:42,579 everyone that's had a positive one the 304 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:45,399 key word is love and I've talked to many 305 00:13:50,449 --> 00:13:47,680 of these people and we are all in 306 00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:50,459 complete agreement that there is no 307 00:13:57,380 --> 00:13:53,800 equivalent to what we experience in this 308 00:14:01,050 --> 00:13:57,390 world that this the sense of love is so 309 00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:01,060 overwhelming so all-encompassing so 310 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:04,660 completely affirming that that's the 311 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:07,500 essence of the light life-changing 312 00:14:13,139 --> 00:14:10,390 transformative experience in that love 313 00:14:15,930 --> 00:14:13,149 and I went to seminary 314 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:15,940 I studied theology and I don't I don't 315 00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:18,910 have any words to even begin to 316 00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:23,800 encapsulate stuff stuff nope it fair 317 00:14:27,870 --> 00:14:25,660 enough and and I I guess where I'm 318 00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:27,880 coming at this from is I'm always a 319 00:14:31,439 --> 00:14:28,600 little 320 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:31,449 but Leary to be honest with you the 321 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:33,730 folks that rely too much on their 322 00:14:39,449 --> 00:14:36,730 experience I mean this is the same thing 323 00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:39,459 Howard that atheists will tell you or 324 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:43,600 people of different religious stripes or 325 00:14:49,319 --> 00:14:46,529 different spiritual strips hey I have a 326 00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:49,329 guy who came on the show and a consumer 327 00:14:55,889 --> 00:14:52,740 friend good guy Graham Nichols he has 328 00:14:58,259 --> 00:14:55,899 out-of-body experiences which is one 329 00:15:00,569 --> 00:14:58,269 part of the near-death experience that 330 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:00,579 you had you're out of your body well he 331 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:02,889 practiced this for a long time and was 332 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:04,810 able to achieve out-of-body experience 333 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:06,910 and I've had other people on that report 334 00:15:13,499 --> 00:15:10,360 similarly but they say there's a no God 335 00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:13,509 kind of experience right so they're out 336 00:15:18,030 --> 00:15:15,519 of their body they're open to 337 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:18,040 experiencing any kind of religious 338 00:15:21,629 --> 00:15:19,810 things but they say hey it's not out 339 00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:21,639 there or you'll have an atheist he'll 340 00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:23,980 say that's Suzanne Gordon again who 341 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:26,620 studied these near-death experiences one 342 00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:28,810 of the people she studied in depth 343 00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:31,300 hundreds of hours of interviews was an 344 00:15:36,509 --> 00:15:34,600 atheist had a near-death experience came 345 00:15:39,929 --> 00:15:36,519 back from the dear death experience and 346 00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:39,939 wasn't completely transformed in terms 347 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:41,860 of a religious experience did 348 00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:43,630 acknowledge that hey well there is 349 00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,600 something more I did learn that but no 350 00:15:52,199 --> 00:15:48,639 I'm not ready to say that you know I'm 351 00:15:54,030 --> 00:15:52,209 down with the whole God and Jesus thing 352 00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:54,040 so there's a variety of different 353 00:15:58,740 --> 00:15:56,980 experiences out there don't we have to 354 00:16:02,340 --> 00:15:58,750 account for those if we're going to take 355 00:16:05,579 --> 00:16:02,350 a more scientific view of these or your 356 00:16:08,370 --> 00:16:05,589 experience is just so specifically 357 00:16:11,309 --> 00:16:08,380 Christian in a way that I gotta tell you 358 00:16:13,379 --> 00:16:11,319 I cannot tell you one near-death 359 00:16:16,139 --> 00:16:13,389 experience researcher that I've 360 00:16:19,439 --> 00:16:16,149 encountered that would be onboard with 361 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:19,449 your interpretation of this experience 362 00:16:24,689 --> 00:16:21,850 in terms of it being singularly a 363 00:16:27,179 --> 00:16:24,699 Christian kind of thing how do you 364 00:16:30,379 --> 00:16:27,189 square with that I certainly believe 365 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:30,389 that all near-death experiences are 366 00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:33,310 idiosyncratic and that people are I 367 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:35,980 believe that these experiences are gifts 368 00:16:40,769 --> 00:16:38,410 and everybody is given a different gift 369 00:16:41,850 --> 00:16:40,779 just as everybody is different in this 370 00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:41,860 world they're all going 371 00:16:45,870 --> 00:16:44,079 have somewhat different experiences as 372 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:45,880 Brendan moody who came up with the the 373 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:49,390 first study of this and said and he 374 00:16:54,930 --> 00:16:51,610 found 10 similarities in what he called 375 00:16:57,420 --> 00:16:54,940 core experiences on and that was pretty 376 00:17:00,810 --> 00:16:57,430 good stuff because people that it had 377 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:00,820 core experiences were out there before 378 00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:02,230 him and moody wondering if they were 379 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:05,559 crazy and when I read moody stuff and 380 00:17:10,289 --> 00:17:07,809 went through the checklist of like yeah 381 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:10,299 yeah yeah I've had these things then I 382 00:17:13,169 --> 00:17:11,650 am like other than your death 383 00:17:15,059 --> 00:17:13,179 experiences but it doesn't mean that any 384 00:17:21,419 --> 00:17:15,069 of us have similar experiences might 385 00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:21,429 experience why why was it so Christian I 386 00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:26,280 can only speculate because I quit church 387 00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:30,880 when I was 14 15 years old I didn't have 388 00:17:34,049 --> 00:17:33,070 any theological background the things 389 00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,059 that I learned of my near-death 390 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:36,640 experience were not recollections of 391 00:17:42,690 --> 00:17:39,370 things that I had learned as a child in 392 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:42,700 Sunday school um I had never read the 393 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:45,940 Bible in my adult life ever and I didn't 394 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:49,600 read any theology so I was given a lot 395 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:52,720 of information that was not implanted in 396 00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:54,970 me in my youth I believed that what I 397 00:18:00,180 --> 00:17:57,460 was given was a gift and I think part of 398 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:00,190 the reason why I was given this gift was 399 00:18:07,370 --> 00:18:03,850 in order to assert the truth the 400 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:07,380 validity of the Christian tradition 401 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:09,730 that's been an interesting journey 402 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:14,770 because I pursued trying to integrate 403 00:18:20,730 --> 00:18:15,820 what I learned in my near-death 404 00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:20,740 experience with my own readings I went 405 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:25,750 to seminary took surprisingly rigorous 406 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:28,270 academic classes to graduate classes in 407 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:32,049 theology and then as a pastor had to try 408 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:34,510 and transmit this information over time 409 00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:39,790 to people and I have wanted to express 410 00:18:46,020 --> 00:18:43,120 myself because I found that that's where 411 00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:46,030 what I learned and what Christian 412 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:49,179 orthodoxy teaches where they come 413 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:51,400 together and support one another I've my 414 00:18:55,169 --> 00:18:53,110 near-death experience I thought well 415 00:18:57,690 --> 00:18:55,179 since Christianity is so 416 00:19:00,269 --> 00:18:57,700 corrupted by people and I don't want to 417 00:19:01,829 --> 00:19:00,279 go into a big critique of the church but 418 00:19:04,709 --> 00:19:01,839 we all know the church has some problems 419 00:19:07,379 --> 00:19:04,719 some serious problems I thought about 420 00:19:09,299 --> 00:19:07,389 the idea of starting a new religion and 421 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:09,309 you can call it howard ism or whatever 422 00:19:15,779 --> 00:19:12,690 you know i'll start my own church and I 423 00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:15,789 very quickly realized what an absolutely 424 00:19:22,739 --> 00:19:18,820 pathetic idea that was because that was 425 00:19:26,339 --> 00:19:22,749 I mean it smacked of narcissism it it 426 00:19:29,489 --> 00:19:26,349 smacked of going off and some editor 427 00:19:32,190 --> 00:19:29,499 place setting myself up as a guru and I 428 00:19:34,619 --> 00:19:32,200 didn't want to do that I want um I want 429 00:19:36,029 --> 00:19:34,629 to be part of this supposedly 2 billion 430 00:19:39,419 --> 00:19:36,039 Christians in the world I wanted to be 431 00:19:41,159 --> 00:19:39,429 part of that body of knowledge which is 432 00:19:44,159 --> 00:19:41,169 a interesting body of knowledge because 433 00:19:46,649 --> 00:19:44,169 it says but I know that's been trying to 434 00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:46,659 work itself up for 5,000 years 435 00:19:51,659 --> 00:19:48,820 you can't think of many other examples 436 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:51,669 of you nobody knows trying to refine 437 00:19:56,159 --> 00:19:53,769 itself over 5,000 years of human history 438 00:19:57,989 --> 00:19:56,169 um there are there are some other 439 00:20:01,099 --> 00:19:57,999 examples but you know this is a really 440 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:01,109 major one and I wanted to express myself 441 00:20:05,369 --> 00:20:03,849 articulate what I understood in that and 442 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:05,379 went on the more I understood 443 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:09,070 Christianity the more I realized that it 444 00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:11,289 was absolutely consistent with what I've 445 00:20:18,749 --> 00:20:14,529 experienced so it's not um so what I 446 00:20:22,919 --> 00:20:18,759 have done is I have merged myself with 447 00:20:25,259 --> 00:20:22,929 this huge ancient tradition and body of 448 00:20:27,719 --> 00:20:25,269 knowledge with two but two billion other 449 00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,729 people on this planet yeah but a lot of 450 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:29,919 those two billion people don't exactly 451 00:20:33,629 --> 00:20:31,570 agree with you as a matter of fact if 452 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:33,639 you go onto Amazon and look at your book 453 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:36,580 the most vocal critics and on the 454 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:38,289 internet in general the most vocal 455 00:20:44,659 --> 00:20:40,809 critics of your book are Christians who 456 00:20:49,469 --> 00:20:44,669 will cite you passage after passage of 457 00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:49,479 where your views conflict with Christian 458 00:20:53,729 --> 00:20:51,849 doctrine and I don't want to get too far 459 00:20:56,579 --> 00:20:53,739 into that because I don't put a lot of 460 00:20:59,820 --> 00:20:56,589 stake in Christian doctrine but at the 461 00:21:03,299 --> 00:20:59,830 same time I guess I'd say you know where 462 00:21:06,089 --> 00:21:03,309 does your Christian interpretation of 463 00:21:08,669 --> 00:21:06,099 the near-death experience fit in with 464 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:08,679 this broader body of near 465 00:21:14,460 --> 00:21:11,369 death experience literature and really 466 00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:14,470 transformative spiritual experiences 467 00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:16,809 because you know one of the people that 468 00:21:22,889 --> 00:21:20,080 that I appreciated it came on the show 469 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:22,899 is dr. Evan Alexandra best-selling book 470 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:24,700 Harvard neurosurgeon has this near-death 471 00:21:30,419 --> 00:21:27,730 experience emphatic about two things one 472 00:21:31,919 --> 00:21:30,429 that it's not religious there is no 473 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:31,929 religious connection to the 474 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:33,730 transformative spiritual experience this 475 00:21:38,879 --> 00:21:35,590 is his interpretation not mine all 476 00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:38,889 religions are a mere pathway or 477 00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:41,830 reflection of this God consciousness 478 00:21:46,169 --> 00:21:44,169 that is out there the light that 479 00:21:48,239 --> 00:21:46,179 everyone talks about and that is 480 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:48,249 repeated over and over again by every 481 00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:49,690 near-death experience or yoga 482 00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:51,700 it's not about religion there's no right 483 00:21:54,659 --> 00:21:53,200 religion it's just there's these 484 00:21:57,210 --> 00:21:54,669 cultural differences that people get 485 00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:57,220 interpreted down and the second thing 486 00:22:01,549 --> 00:21:59,440 that he's emphatic about is that we 487 00:22:04,889 --> 00:22:01,559 shouldn't just be looking at near-death 488 00:22:08,129 --> 00:22:04,899 experiences as the only way that this 489 00:22:10,919 --> 00:22:08,139 God consciousness gets transmitted that 490 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:10,929 there's a broader body of transformative 491 00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:12,730 spiritual experiences people of 492 00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:15,039 Kundalini experiences people have just 493 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:17,440 spontaneous prayer experiences or 494 00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:18,940 they're doing the rosary or something 495 00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:21,820 like that so two points then don't we 496 00:22:26,249 --> 00:22:23,919 have to look at this in terms of a 497 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:26,259 broader transformative spiritual 498 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:28,330 experience and don't we have to pull 499 00:22:31,859 --> 00:22:29,980 religion out of this doesn't it just 500 00:22:33,629 --> 00:22:31,869 really kind of muck it up because as 501 00:22:35,879 --> 00:22:33,639 soon as you put it in there like that 502 00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:35,889 then you're will sounding like a lot of 503 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:38,440 other people that are very dogmatic 504 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:41,970 about their perspective about their 505 00:22:46,859 --> 00:22:44,529 connection with the the higher source 506 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:46,869 and it's the my way or the highway kind 507 00:22:51,239 --> 00:22:49,840 of thing I agree with almost everything 508 00:22:53,820 --> 00:22:51,249 you said that it's not about religion 509 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:53,830 and that absolutely near-death 510 00:22:59,009 --> 00:22:57,490 experiences are only a subcategory of 511 00:23:01,649 --> 00:22:59,019 what I would refer to as mystical 512 00:23:03,389 --> 00:23:01,659 experiences or transformative 513 00:23:05,369 --> 00:23:03,399 experiences whatever you want to call so 514 00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:05,379 there's a whole lot more to 515 00:23:11,159 --> 00:23:08,340 transformative experiences than the NDE 516 00:23:14,129 --> 00:23:11,169 now back to religion for so the one 517 00:23:16,169 --> 00:23:14,139 thing that took exception to is that our 518 00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:16,179 religions are not the same you know 519 00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,350 religions are not equally good and there 520 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:22,480 are religions 521 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:26,410 that teach hate and destruction and 522 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:29,290 there are religions that promote love 523 00:23:36,110 --> 00:23:32,850 and there are tremendous abuses of 524 00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:36,120 religions within religion so 525 00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:38,020 Christianity which is the majority 526 00:23:43,580 --> 00:23:40,990 religion on this planet where two 527 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:43,590 billion inherence 528 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:47,020 sociopaths and narcissists and every 529 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:50,110 every kind of human disorder personality 530 00:23:56,850 --> 00:23:53,130 disorder that's imaginable in it and 531 00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:56,860 some of those people are very vocal but 532 00:24:04,110 --> 00:24:00,640 the teaching of the essential 533 00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:04,120 Christianity and I'm not trying to bring 534 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:07,960 this up is in my opinion absolutely 535 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:12,090 consistent with the love ethic and 536 00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:14,850 cosmology of the near-death experience 537 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:17,860 III wouldn't argue with you so let's say 538 00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:20,830 that it is but I think that the the 539 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:23,740 problem comes in that we bring along 540 00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:26,650 with that the baggage of the main 541 00:24:31,409 --> 00:24:29,169 baggage is just that the primacy you 542 00:24:34,620 --> 00:24:31,419 know Christianity is it baby 543 00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:34,630 it is the way to go it is the only way 544 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:38,830 to go that is consistently what we hear 545 00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:41,740 in the United States in the West 546 00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:45,460 up from the Christian group and and I 547 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:46,720 don't think you'd back away from that 548 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:48,580 either I mean I've listened I've watched 549 00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:50,650 some of you things and it's like through 550 00:24:54,659 --> 00:24:52,480 Jesus only through Jesus only through 551 00:24:56,820 --> 00:24:54,669 Jesus hey that's not what this broader 552 00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:56,830 near-death experience is says it's not 553 00:25:00,570 --> 00:24:58,840 saying consistently and that's one I 554 00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:00,580 think we have to do rely on science and 555 00:25:04,049 --> 00:25:02,440 we say okay what percentage of people 556 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:04,059 say that that's it what presented people 557 00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:05,980 don't and that we can measure it a bunch 558 00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:07,150 of different ways we can say are they 559 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:09,160 transformed are they living are they 560 00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:11,650 living the right life and we would have 561 00:25:15,150 --> 00:25:13,870 to conclude and again you know we were 562 00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:15,160 at the beginning of this argue and I 563 00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:17,020 were just chatting about the absurdity 564 00:25:20,370 --> 00:25:19,900 of atheism and how it doesn't make any 565 00:25:22,140 --> 00:25:20,380 sense 566 00:25:23,820 --> 00:25:22,150 and yet it's jammed down our throat and 567 00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:23,830 it's almost like it's programmed in and 568 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:25,540 you mentioned being in academia and 569 00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:27,130 having it everyone's just kind of in the 570 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:28,630 club and going oh yeah that's the way it 571 00:25:33,539 --> 00:25:30,250 is we're all meaningless robots we don't 572 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:33,549 have any our love for life our love for 573 00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:35,110 our family all that's just an illusion 574 00:25:37,730 --> 00:25:35,760 of course 575 00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:37,740 I'm a biological robot aren't you and 576 00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,440 everyone nods yeah I am too it's absurd 577 00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:42,240 well I gotta tell you from my 578 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:45,000 perspective it's equally absurd to say 579 00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:48,770 that all these people that I see who are 580 00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:51,030 spiritually developed who have these 581 00:25:57,530 --> 00:25:53,460 wonderful gifts that they bring of of 582 00:26:00,980 --> 00:25:57,540 love and insights are somehow in some 583 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:00,990 way lesser because they don't have a 584 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:03,390 Christian orientation or that they don't 585 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:06,750 believe that that's necessary I think 586 00:26:12,650 --> 00:26:09,710 that's a fundamental problem with 587 00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:12,660 Christianity that is very hard for 588 00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:15,510 people who are not Christian but are 589 00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:18,060 still spiritually inclined to get past 590 00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:20,760 is this primacy of Christianity that 591 00:26:24,650 --> 00:26:23,040 yeah well you'll talk really nice but at 592 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:24,660 the end of the day baby it better come 593 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:28,980 through Jesus or it's not real I got a 594 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:31,050 couple responses one is I found the 595 00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:33,690 perfect response to all this from Mother 596 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:35,790 Teresa she was asked by reporters in 597 00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:37,050 India what she thought of all the 598 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:39,150 religions in India and she said and this 599 00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,250 is a quote from other trace I love all 600 00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:43,440 religions but I love my own the best and 601 00:26:48,430 --> 00:26:45,720 I have used that many many many times I 602 00:26:51,410 --> 00:26:48,440 have also tried to practice it so that 603 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:51,420 for example a couple years ago I was in 604 00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:54,450 China with a absolutely lovely 605 00:27:00,350 --> 00:26:58,080 clearly spiritually developed woman who 606 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:00,360 said I'm a Buddhist I'm not a Christian 607 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:02,130 and I'm interested in Christianity and I 608 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:04,860 said to her you're doing just fine and 609 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:08,370 I'm not here to change you know I have 610 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:11,930 found comfort and guidance and truth 611 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:14,250 I've found everything I've been looking 612 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:19,290 for in Christianity and I want to share 613 00:27:25,930 --> 00:27:21,570 that with people and I have read 614 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:25,940 Hinduism Buddhism you know Baha'i faith 615 00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:29,250 I've looked at other religions and I 616 00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:32,880 find some good or a lot of good in many 617 00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:35,580 and all of them and to me there's two 618 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:37,950 kinds of people in the world one is 619 00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:40,350 people who love religion and the other 620 00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:42,630 group is people who love God I love 621 00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:44,550 people who love God and I don't care 622 00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:46,560 what religion they belong to and I don't 623 00:27:51,549 --> 00:27:48,860 really like people who love real 624 00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:51,559 hmm that's an interest I've never heard 625 00:27:55,530 --> 00:27:53,390 that for I love that that's great it's 626 00:27:59,530 --> 00:27:55,540 not like the like the mother Teresa 627 00:28:03,070 --> 00:27:59,540 quote to and I respect that we can have 628 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:03,080 preferences it's okay to say I love my 629 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:06,770 religion best I love how that makes me 630 00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:09,530 feel how that makes me interact with the 631 00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:12,080 world I'm totally in sync with with 632 00:28:18,220 --> 00:28:16,030 those ideas so yeah I'm promoting 633 00:28:20,620 --> 00:28:18,230 Christianity because that's what I know 634 00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:20,630 and that's what works for me and um I 635 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:23,840 can't really I mean to go around and 636 00:28:30,370 --> 00:28:28,610 promote universal religion because there 637 00:28:32,590 --> 00:28:30,380 is no such thing you know it 638 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:32,600 there isn't I'm you know I believe that 639 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:35,210 the the essence of seeking God that is 640 00:28:40,030 --> 00:28:37,100 the universal religion but it's kind of 641 00:28:42,909 --> 00:28:40,040 big you know I meant to the guy that 642 00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:42,919 says love your enemies that's that's the 643 00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:44,360 religion I don't want to promote you 644 00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:49,040 know right so your work then from the 645 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:51,590 point of having this transformation and 646 00:28:56,919 --> 00:28:52,850 then as you mentioned going through 647 00:28:59,980 --> 00:28:56,929 seminary becoming a pastor has also 648 00:29:02,560 --> 00:28:59,990 again made you somewhat of a lightning 649 00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:02,570 rod I mean you say some things that are 650 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:05,990 pretty provocative to a lot of people on 651 00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,250 you said that God is disappointed in the 652 00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:13,360 United States or disappointed in some 653 00:29:17,770 --> 00:29:15,980 aspects of our culture I mean these are 654 00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:17,780 the kind of things that you understand 655 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:20,270 that they that they one they rob people 656 00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:24,230 up and number two they go against what a 657 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:27,140 lot of other spiritual people are saying 658 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:29,330 in terms of how we're supposed to 659 00:29:34,419 --> 00:29:31,370 understand our relationship with God how 660 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:34,429 do you feel about being this kind of a 661 00:29:41,020 --> 00:29:37,970 lightning rod in some ways I really have 662 00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:41,030 not expired or made any conscious effort 663 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:45,049 to be that I am really kind of surprised 664 00:29:50,169 --> 00:29:47,630 when people take issue with me because 665 00:29:53,169 --> 00:29:50,179 anything important that I have to say I 666 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:53,179 believe is based on my near-death 667 00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:55,370 experience and I have said to people 668 00:29:58,780 --> 00:29:57,260 when they've taken exception we won't if 669 00:30:00,460 --> 00:29:58,790 you don't like it don't you go argue 670 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:00,470 with Jesus because that's what he told 671 00:30:03,790 --> 00:30:01,910 me I'm just 672 00:30:07,270 --> 00:30:03,800 reporting don't beat up the messenger 673 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:07,280 and people of course find that very glib 674 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:09,770 and evasive and it's not at all Jesus 675 00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:12,770 told me things very clearly and 676 00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:15,500 straightforwardly that were very 677 00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:20,120 surprising and apparently upset people I 678 00:30:25,690 --> 00:30:22,180 would like one of the things that I get 679 00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:25,700 taken to task for is about a life on 680 00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:27,740 other planets Jesus and I talked a lot 681 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:29,360 about life on other planets so what not 682 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:30,770 only did he affirm it but he showed me 683 00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:32,120 about life in other planets and told me 684 00:30:35,140 --> 00:30:33,830 the role of life on other planets and 685 00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:35,150 our relationship to other planets etc 686 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:37,700 etc we talked about NZ with a lot of 687 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:39,770 conversation about and there's so many 688 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:41,690 people that there's no life on other 689 00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:43,610 planets that's not in the Bible well 690 00:30:47,770 --> 00:30:46,640 Mike countered that is they didn't know 691 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:47,780 about that then they didn't know about 692 00:30:52,570 --> 00:30:50,810 telephones or TV or automobiles then 693 00:30:55,450 --> 00:30:52,580 either but now we know and 694 00:30:56,740 --> 00:30:55,460 of course science is recently in the 695 00:30:58,540 --> 00:30:56,750 last few years 696 00:31:02,640 --> 00:30:58,550 I'm beginning to discover that this 697 00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:02,650 earth-like planets lots of them actually 698 00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:05,140 millions of them more than they even 699 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:08,270 imagine there were no in the universe in 700 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:11,690 there in there being proven by science 701 00:31:18,490 --> 00:31:14,210 of course this life on other planets God 702 00:31:21,250 --> 00:31:18,500 is a creative mad scientist making you 703 00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:21,260 know lots of life all over the universe 704 00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:23,150 sub you know one of the one of the 705 00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:26,180 things that people get upset with said I 706 00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,230 I want to affirm people's love and 707 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:32,480 pursuit of God in whatever culture 708 00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:36,770 they've grown up in and Christians say 709 00:31:41,710 --> 00:31:39,800 we shouldn't do that most o so it's 710 00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:41,720 better to go around beat up people for 711 00:31:46,510 --> 00:31:43,100 their love of God that's crazy 712 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:46,520 Jesus didn't do that you know Jesus when 713 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:50,170 he met people from different cultures 714 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:53,090 loved them and affirmed them where they 715 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:54,770 were for example a syrophoenician woman 716 00:32:02,230 --> 00:31:57,730 a Samaritan woman the Roman centurion 717 00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:02,240 and he he certainly loved and affirmed 718 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:03,980 people in his sculpture who were 719 00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:07,010 condemned to death for example the woman 720 00:32:11,380 --> 00:32:08,720 caught in adultery the thief on the 721 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:11,390 cross I mean Jesus loved and affirmed 722 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:14,720 people where they were at and said 723 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:15,710 you've got to do this you 724 00:32:21,159 --> 00:32:17,510 we better subscribe to this set of 725 00:32:24,669 --> 00:32:21,169 dogmas and I might consider you my this 726 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:24,679 is this judgmental nature of Christians 727 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:29,330 and this need to make people conform to 728 00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:31,250 their understanding before they can 729 00:32:38,110 --> 00:32:34,460 accept them is contrary to the example 730 00:32:39,789 --> 00:32:38,120 of what I see in the Gospels so it's 731 00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:39,799 interesting it's also interesting what 732 00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:43,760 you say about the existence of conscious 733 00:32:48,639 --> 00:32:46,460 beings on other planets because I've 734 00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:48,649 I've heard that from other near-death 735 00:32:53,649 --> 00:32:51,110 experience or is independently just 736 00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:53,659 saying that they've brought that back so 737 00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,580 it's interesting when we can kind of 738 00:33:00,340 --> 00:32:57,200 make those connections and say wow that 739 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:00,350 matches up someone else's but not 740 00:33:04,659 --> 00:33:02,240 everything matches up from everyone's 741 00:33:06,820 --> 00:33:04,669 near-death experience or a spiritual 742 00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:06,830 experience and that's I guess part of 743 00:33:11,740 --> 00:33:09,440 the the challenge and the fun of why 744 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:11,750 we're here trying to figure all this out 745 00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:15,049 so tell me this pastors from where do 746 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:17,600 you see I want to say I guess your 747 00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,330 ministry or your work with this where is 748 00:33:24,690 --> 00:33:22,159 it taking you now you've been at it for 749 00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,700 a while where do you go from here well 750 00:33:31,810 --> 00:33:27,440 honestly I'm just totally winging it I 751 00:33:36,669 --> 00:33:31,820 don't know what I am about to put two 752 00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,679 books on Amazon as ebooks because I've 753 00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:38,960 been working on these two books for a 754 00:33:43,510 --> 00:33:41,360 few years and just felt that that 755 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:43,520 wouldn't make them the least expensive 756 00:33:46,690 --> 00:33:45,320 and most accessible going that route so 757 00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:46,700 hopefully that's going to happen in a 758 00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:48,320 week or two tell us a little bit about 759 00:33:53,169 --> 00:33:50,289 what you're putting out there in Amazon 760 00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:53,179 one is a novel that I wrote to try and 761 00:33:59,230 --> 00:33:57,200 illustrate how people in the struggles 762 00:34:02,380 --> 00:33:59,240 and difficulties of life can find 763 00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:02,390 solutions through the help of faith 764 00:34:08,649 --> 00:34:04,100 community and through the help of God 765 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:08,659 that we can overcome every difficulty so 766 00:34:13,889 --> 00:34:11,450 that and I wrote that as a novel and all 767 00:34:17,139 --> 00:34:13,899 the experiences in the book are actually 768 00:34:19,359 --> 00:34:17,149 based on factual experiences mine and 769 00:34:21,490 --> 00:34:19,369 other people's that I've done so it's 770 00:34:23,550 --> 00:34:21,500 really a book of like small miracles and 771 00:34:26,079 --> 00:34:23,560 big miracles but trying to make it as 772 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:26,089 compelling and realistic as possible the 773 00:34:33,099 --> 00:34:29,450 other book is in my book 774 00:34:35,050 --> 00:34:33,109 to death I wrote from I wrote it begins 775 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:35,060 with my near-death experience and and 776 00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:37,310 then goes through some of the things 777 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:39,260 that happened afterwards and I wrote 778 00:34:44,649 --> 00:34:42,290 that book to a as broad an audience as 779 00:34:48,069 --> 00:34:44,659 possible so it's not a very Christian 780 00:34:51,339 --> 00:34:48,079 book I decided that I needed to put a 781 00:34:54,419 --> 00:34:51,349 book out there that one gave a lot of 782 00:34:57,790 --> 00:34:54,429 background personal background and also 783 00:35:00,160 --> 00:34:57,800 talked about how it developed in my 784 00:35:03,790 --> 00:35:00,170 Christian or standing and furthermore 785 00:35:06,190 --> 00:35:03,800 how I tried to successfully an 786 00:35:11,020 --> 00:35:06,200 unsuccessful to lift out in my life so 787 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:11,030 that you know this a lot about the hills 788 00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:13,250 and valleys of pastoring churches and 789 00:35:18,670 --> 00:35:16,880 family life and you know divorce and 790 00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,680 remarriage and stuff like that sure 791 00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:20,480 degree so it's it's very personal and 792 00:35:26,050 --> 00:35:23,260 I've tried to become really transparent 793 00:35:28,030 --> 00:35:26,060 by writing that I'm sort of spiritual 794 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:28,040 journey down I'm working on a third book 795 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:29,690 I want to write a book I am writing a 796 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:32,210 book about Jesus but I don't know when 797 00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:34,010 I'll ever get that time because every 798 00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:37,520 time I read another book about Jesus I 799 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:40,760 get more insights from other people just 800 00:35:46,620 --> 00:35:42,890 keep growing in my understanding 801 00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:46,630 appreciation for who and what Jesus is 802 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:48,950 you know one thing you just touched on 803 00:35:57,069 --> 00:35:52,569 there is this aspect of the near-death 804 00:35:58,780 --> 00:35:57,079 experience or continuing life after the 805 00:36:01,599 --> 00:35:58,790 experience you know and I remember 806 00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:01,609 interviewing PMH Atwater who is a 807 00:36:06,579 --> 00:36:03,440 near-death experience researcher who's 808 00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:06,589 really looked at that quite extensively 809 00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:08,540 and maybe you want to talk about a 810 00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:11,030 little bit about that that just because 811 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:12,400 you've had a near-death experience 812 00:36:17,710 --> 00:36:15,410 doesn't mean all your problems are over 813 00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:17,720 just like if you've had some kind of 814 00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:19,310 religious conversion doesn't mean all 815 00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:21,020 your problems are over as a matter of 816 00:36:26,109 --> 00:36:23,569 fact it's with the near-death experience 817 00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:26,119 it sometimes can be more upsetting 818 00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:29,270 because it puts you at odds with a lot 819 00:36:35,230 --> 00:36:32,960 of your former friends and family 820 00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:35,240 members but also just puts you up at 821 00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:38,240 odds with your former life so what's 822 00:36:42,210 --> 00:36:41,390 that like well I guess there are several 823 00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:42,220 and 824 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:43,870 big disappointments that I had to 825 00:36:50,220 --> 00:36:46,090 struggle with one is that after a 826 00:36:52,140 --> 00:36:50,230 near-death experience I wrongly assumed 827 00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:52,150 that I was going to be a saint and that 828 00:36:58,620 --> 00:36:55,920 I would not have temper anger lust 829 00:37:00,660 --> 00:36:58,630 delusions you know make mistakes at all 830 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:00,670 that I would be somehow I had been 831 00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:03,130 elevated to the superior person and to 832 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:05,830 my horror I found out that that wasn't 833 00:37:11,010 --> 00:37:08,770 the case at all that I was right just 834 00:37:13,590 --> 00:37:11,020 another human being no better or worse 835 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:13,600 than anybody else death Howard still oh 836 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:15,610 yeah so that was a shocker the other one 837 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:18,970 was is that when I came back because of 838 00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:22,570 the physical problems that I was having 839 00:37:28,250 --> 00:37:25,420 which were life-threatening and went on 840 00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:28,260 for very long time and because of all 841 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:33,670 losses of friends and family there was a 842 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:35,650 large apartment said this this just 843 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:38,290 isn't worth it I just assumed die and go 844 00:37:45,590 --> 00:37:41,170 to heaven and get out of here and it was 845 00:37:49,110 --> 00:37:45,600 very difficult to overcome the desire to 846 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:49,120 detach myself from world for example one 847 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:50,650 of the solutions I found was I decided 848 00:37:56,490 --> 00:37:53,610 that it would be really good to become a 849 00:37:59,160 --> 00:37:56,500 contemplative monk so I went to a 850 00:38:01,830 --> 00:37:59,170 monastery with the intention of becoming 851 00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:01,840 a monk and of course they wouldn't have 852 00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:03,070 anything to do with me one and they 853 00:38:07,850 --> 00:38:04,240 found out that was married and had 854 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:07,860 children like go home what are you doing 855 00:38:16,050 --> 00:38:12,010 does another big disappointment so 856 00:38:18,930 --> 00:38:16,060 trying to Missoula near-death experience 857 00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:18,940 our sensibilities our compassion is 858 00:38:23,580 --> 00:38:21,760 greatly increased and when one sees 859 00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:23,590 what's going on in the world both in the 860 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:25,630 micro level of our personal 861 00:38:31,410 --> 00:38:28,390 relationships and in the macro level of 862 00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:31,420 what's happening in the world it can be 863 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:34,240 quite discouraging and that's a constant 864 00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:37,170 battle to not let that discouragement 865 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:41,440 overwhelm you and become hopeless I have 866 00:38:48,750 --> 00:38:45,310 tried to stay in the stay in the world 867 00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:48,760 and be an active participate in the 868 00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:51,310 world and it has it has and it's really 869 00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:54,040 discouraging that my brothers and 870 00:39:00,520 --> 00:38:56,000 sisters in the Christian faith 871 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:00,530 I want to tear me apart when I thought 872 00:39:04,540 --> 00:39:02,690 we were all on the same page promoting 873 00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:04,550 the same stuff but apparently I'm not 874 00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:07,280 good enough for them sounds like an 875 00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:08,720 important work that you're doing 876 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:11,630 I appreciate the book my descent into 877 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:13,610 death and we're certainly going to look 878 00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:15,530 forward for these couple of new books 879 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:16,910 that you're going to be putting out on 880 00:39:22,540 --> 00:39:19,690 Amazon we'll keep an eye out for those 881 00:39:24,580 --> 00:39:22,550 thanks so much for joining me today our 882 00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:24,590 guest has been pastor Howard storm 883 00:39:29,850 --> 00:39:27,680 author of my descent into death thank 884 00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:29,860 you thank you Alex it was a pleasure 885 00:39:34,450 --> 00:39:32,240 thanks again to Howard Stern for joining 886 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:34,460 me today on skeptic oh I guess I'd have 887 00:39:40,210 --> 00:39:36,890 one question to tee up from this 888 00:39:44,970 --> 00:39:40,220 interview and that is how much do you 889 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:44,980 trust your experience when it comes to 890 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:47,210 spiritual matters spiritual 891 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:50,690 transformation spiritual decisions for 892 00:39:56,050 --> 00:39:53,290 me that turns out to be a lot bigger 893 00:39:58,960 --> 00:39:56,060 question than it might at first seem I 894 00:40:02,380 --> 00:39:58,970 mean I think we're in a position now to 895 00:40:06,070 --> 00:40:02,390 be a little bit more discerning of how 896 00:40:09,010 --> 00:40:06,080 our experience might fit into the 897 00:40:12,310 --> 00:40:09,020 broader phenomena that's being reported 898 00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:12,320 by a bunch of other people and I happen 899 00:40:16,990 --> 00:40:15,110 to think that's very important but I 900 00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:17,000 want to hear your opinion and I hope you 901 00:40:21,580 --> 00:40:19,310 share with me there are several ways to 902 00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:21,590 do so they're all available through the 903 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:26,390 Skeptical website at ske pti k Oh calm 904 00:40:31,660 --> 00:40:29,150 you can bounce over to reforms drop me 905 00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:31,670 an email or leave a comment right there 906 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:33,800 on the website while you're there of 907 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:35,690 course be sure to check out all our 908 00:40:40,690 --> 00:40:38,330 previous shows you can download them 909 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:40,700 from the website or you can subscribe 910 00:40:47,290 --> 00:40:44,570 through iTunes or other podcast grabbing 911 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:47,300 kind of thingies I hope you'll do that I 912 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:49,850 have a number of interesting shows 913 00:40:53,770 --> 00:40:52,130 coming up they're kind of piling up and 914 00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:53,780 I'm tempted to get them out more than 915 00:40:57,940 --> 00:40:55,910 once every two weeks but we'll have to 916 00:41:00,010 --> 00:40:57,950 see how scheduling and everything else 917 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:00,020 goes but I have some good ones in there 918 00:41:04,930 --> 00:41:02,810 and some more good ones to come many 919 00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:04,940 many interesting topics to cover I'll 920 00:41:09,609 --> 00:41:06,740 never get around to covering them all 921 00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:09,619 but I'm just going to continue to follow 922 00:41:14,380 --> 00:41:12,470 and also follow your suggestions more 923 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:14,390 and more these shows are coming from you 924 00:41:19,029 --> 00:41:16,970 skeptical listeners suggesting where we 925 00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:19,039 might go and that's really a neat part 926 00:41:23,799 --> 00:41:21,680 of this process as well so that's going